Orot.TV Jewish Television Focus Elazar Shturm: We're in Karnei Shomron, my guest this time is MK... oops, just making a point; he's still not a Member of Knesset, Moshe Feiglin. They fight about this [b'tachtushot] within the Likud non-stop. We'll talk about it all. Shalom, Moshe Feiglin. I amused you? I see that I amused you with the bit about being an MK? Moshe Feiglin: Yes, because... ES: Why? MF: Because that "oops" is a common mistake among all the interviewers. ES: I didn't make a mistake. MF: No, no you didn't make a mistake, but you built on the widespread mistake. ES: And why is this mistake made? MF: Because I have one leg in and one leg out all the time. It's a strange situation. ES: Why are they so afraid of you in the Likud, Moshe Feiglin? Why? Are you scary? You're a nice Jew, with a smile. MF: Let's talk straight. I'm leading a revolution. That's entirely clear. And this revolution, since the mindset doesn't have a set drawer to contain it, it's frightening. People think, oh, Khomeini, Iran, religious discrimination, halakhic state, all sorts of nonsense like that. And it could be, beyond the main issues, there's also fear, because it just keeps getting stronger, and it's succeeding. ES: I'd like to investigate that a little deeper for a moment. You tossed out some concepts here, some expressions: Khomeini state, religious revolution, and all sorts of things like that. At the same time, you're building, or have built, something that I don't understand at all. A liberal party? Am I right? Liberal Jewish, or a Jewish movement? What is this? Are you a liberal? MF: I think I am, and how. You'd be amazed how much. ES: I'm ready to be amazed. Tell me. MF: For example, if you ask me, I think... let's start from basics. The essence of a Jew is freedom. The most internal and basic Jewish message is freedom. "The Name of God was engraved on the tablets." I don't have to tell you that the Sages said, "Don't read 'engraved' (charut); rather 'freedom' (cheirut)." The whole essence of Judaism is freedom, and that's the message of Judaism. ES: "One who takes this to its extreme..." there are five versions, "One who takes this to its extreme is free to himself." Do you accept this? Being free to one's self? MF: Without a doubt, yes. Without a doubt, yes. Which is to say... ES: In the liberal sense? MF: And I'm trying to translate that to... and I'll give you some examples, shortly, which will surprise you, of my attempts to put the idea of freedom into effect. For example, forced induction into the army. Does that seem to you like an idea of freedom? ES: Clearly, yes, if that induction is worthwhile and if society needs it. Clearly. MF: And if I find that this forced induction today is for the ethos of "the People's Army", and when I check in practice, it turns out that the army doesn't exactly need this induction. ES: On the contrary. You asked a conceptual question versus a practical one. MF: Let's say this. If the practice were to work out, would you be in favor of a volunteer army and getting rid of compulsory induction? ES: Certainly I'd accept that. But I'm not exactly a security expert. MF: So that's one example. ES: Do you accept the rights, for example, of the Palestinians? Why are are you laughing. Was there a joke? MF: Yes. Because I don't like it when people lie. ES: I lied with my question? MF: Without a doubt, yes. ES: With my question? I don't know how you can lie with a question, Moshe Feiglin. MF: You lied with the question, because when you say the word "Palestinian", you're already lying. You're describing... you're placing on the table a reality that doesn't exist. ES: You not ready to recognize or accept the freedom of the other to define himself, and you say that someone who asks about it is lying? MF: Let's put it this way, Elazar. I aspire to freedom, and I claim, in addition, that there is truth and falsehood in the world. Because there's a God. The moment there's a God, there's truth and falsehood. Within the truth and falsehood, there is true freedom. There's a "Palestinian people", so to speak? You have to prove... ES: Because they defines themselves as such. Who am I say how they should define themselves? MF: You know what? Okay. Let them define themselves however they want. In their place. But what can I do? This is my land. In other words, the whole definition of Palestinian, and it's easy to prove this from a historical perspective, is a definition that was intended to cancel out Israeliness. To cancel the Jewish national identity. ES: Which implies that the rights of the Arabs in the Land of Israel, according to you, if I understand correctly, will be maintained, on condition that the rights not be complete. MF: I think that everything you, the leftists... ES: I don't belong to the left. MF: I see that I've attacked you, right? ES: Attack me all you want. But I don't belong to the left. MF: So I won't say "you". ES: I'm a political dove. I'm not a leftist. MF: I think that everything you, who identify yourselves as white doves, did to your brothers in Gush Katif and now in Ulpana, must never be done to anyone. Not to Jews and not to Arabs. I think that you proved yourselves not to be people of freedom or people of rights, certainly not human rights, and yes, we must not do that to them, unless they declare war, and then it's clearly a different situation. ES: Moshe Feiglin, and the Arabs of the Greater Land of Israel, from the Mediterranean to the Jordan, their rights will be full rights? Very simple. MF: Full human rights, without a doubt. ES: And political rights? Will they be able to vote for the Knesset? MF: No. Because this isn't their land. ES: Okay. Tell me, your party, one of whose tags, one of the labels on its big chest, is Jewish democratic party, list, group... am I right? Does that phrase appear? MF: No. ES: Different Jewish Leadership? Remind me. MF: Jewish leadership (Manhigut Yehudit). ES: Jewish leadership. MF: That's all. ES: Does that Jewish leadership include democracy? In its deep meaning? MF: I think that only a Jewish state can be democratic. ES: What does that mean? MF: A state that runs away from its Jewishness necessarily runs away from its democracy. ES: What Jewish identity? Explain that to me. I simply don't understand the phrase. MF: The State of Israel as a Jewish state must aspire to freedom in every area. Personal, communal, national, and international. In other words, the message that goes out from the State of Israel to all the world from the individual to the general to the whole universe, is in one word: freedom. That's the reality. If they're currently murdering entire communities in Syria, that's our problem. ES: Why haven't you come out with a statement on this? MF: First of all, I've certainly come out with it. For example, you could have seen me, a lone demonstrator. I didn't see you, the white doves, there, against Israel's participation in the Beijing Olympic games. Because they have concentration camps in China where they raise humans like geese, in order to sell their organs. So we went and participated. We, the state of Israel, after the Munich Olympics, and we participated in Olympics like that. I thought that the message, at least to the western world, that this needs to be boycotted, should have come from the State of Israel. But those aren't even concepts that interest anyone today. The State of Israel needs to proclaim the message of freedom to the world. First of all, as regards itself. As regards its society. To live as a just society. A model society. That's its challenge. ES: Would you agree with me that a state, in our time, requires a top-down framework? In other words, the Knesset, one thing, which you're trying to get to, or your emissaries, whoever they may be, and on the other hand, let's say, the court. We can't do without them. MF: Certainly. ES: Right? A court that's not a halakhic court. Because we aren't a religious state. MF: No. It will not be a halakhic court, and I don't know what a halakhic court would be. ES: I'll give you examples. There are those who view the rabbinate as the High Court. MF: Okay, in an individual sense, halakha has something to tell us. In a national sense, it has nothing to say, because what can we do? Things haven't developed in the proper ways. ES: Say that again? You made a very important statement. MF: Halakha, as it is today, has nothing to say about politics. That's correct. It's a culture which needs to develop. We need to aspire to a situation where our Torah becomes our culture. Not all the pieces of this puzzle are in my pocket. Some are in your pocket. Some are in the pockets of citizens in general. There's no such thing as a halakhic state. We need a court. We need the court to rule. But we need to always remember that the sovereign is the Knesset, and it has the right to make laws that prevent this [?] that we see today. ES: In this free state of freedom of yours, which I think is a sort of limited freedom, let's take gays and lesbians. Would they have full freedom to live their lives? MF: What a question. Of course. ES: And when you hear a person who is close to you... MF: The question is, as long as they don't try and put _me_ in the closet. ES: They can't. And everyone will live and do... MF: That's exactly what's happening today. I agree with what's appropriate. ES: Is it appropriate that in the army, someone can come and say, "I'm gay"? And to declare about themselves that they are gay or lesbian? MF: Listen, there are homosexuals, and there's homosexuality. As a culture. As a message. With the former, I live in peace and serenity and quiet and respect. But I have a problem with homosexuality as a culture. ES: In other words, in your eyes, a person who make a public statement, who goes to his unit and says, "Hey, guys, I'm gay." MF: There's nothing to make a public statement about. ES: Assume that he does. And he says, "Folks, I'm gay." Such a thing is unacceptable to you. I can't understand... MF: But you aren't hearing me. You aren't hearing me. I have no problem with someone coming to the IDF... ES: What do you want him to do? MF: ... and if they know he's gay, that's okay, too. But if he makes it a banner, in order to eat away at values that the IDF has had up until now, then it begins to be a problem. ES: In the next Knesset, will you be an MK? This is the last question. Will you pass the hurdles that Bibi places in front of you. I mean, he'll fight against you with all his strength. MF: Look. I... the One who crowns kings and the kingdom is His. I'm striving for a place much more long term than membership in the Knesset. I think that the State of Israel needs Jewish leadership, because without it, it has no direction and no goal, and therefore, it continues to disintegrate. Today, missiles are falling in the Negev, and no one knows what to do about it. And the Knesset is just one step. So it doesn't overly concern me. ES: Moshe Feiglin, I thank you very much. And all the sounds of these pure and simple children who are playing here and making noise, and have no idea about the problems the adults are preparing for them. Thank you.